Urgent help

[dan58]

I need a PSC p-pump today (Friday) to get to RC this weekend. BOTH of mine didn't work worth a damn. This is the saginaw version. Yeah for 3:40am........... :doh:

[Mike]

How do you know they are bad? Seems odd both would go at once. You are running two coolers, right? Enogh fluid? Are you sure there isn't any air/blocks in the system?

[frosty]

What Mike said.

[CrawfishStu]

We pulled the pressure line going to the orbital. No fluid was being pumped at all with the first one.

[CrawfishStu]

I'm pretty sure he is running one cooler. It has plenty of fluid.

[dan58]

The second one leaked like a sieve around the can. PSC must improve those paper-thin cases. That makes THREE times I've had issues with that case.

[Jack]

The second one leaked like a sieve around the can. PSC must improve those paper-thin cases. That makes THREE times I've had issues with that case.

Don't let there be a 4th: http://www.howeperformance.com/rockcrawling.html

[CrawfishStu]

I don't know what pump I have but I have a psc full hydro kit that I bought for the zook. So it's whatever would have gone on a 22re.

[dan58]

Don't let there be a 4th: http://www.howeperformance.com/rockcrawling.html

They haven't charged me to fix one yet. Everyone has the same design because that's how GM made it years ago.

[CrawfishStu]

well when I hit balt this afternoon i'll double check and you are welcome to it.

[dan58]

Thanks, Stu. I wonder if a regular old saginaw pump could work.

[dan58]

well when I hit balt this afternoon i'll double check and you are welcome to it.

This kit?

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/-PK1230-Toyota-22RE-Performance-Pump-Kit.html

[67temp]

If a stock pump off an 87 xj or 97 4.3l blazer would work your welcome to pull mine.

[frosty]

I wonder if a regular old saginaw pump could work.

A stock P pump should work. Other than not being modified for a remote reservoir. And if you had their performance P pump you might want to swap out the high pressure fitting. I think that is what is modded for the higher PSI.

You might be able to find a stock pump that can use a remote reservoir or mod it to work temporarily.

[Mike]

We pulled the pressure line going to the orbital. No fluid was being pumped at all with the first one.

Pull the pump apart and check the o-rings. The vane style pumps are very easy to rebuild. I find it odd that no fluid was being pumped at all. If no pressure is being built, then that pump should have been leaking fluid.

[dan58]

If a stock pump off an 87 xj or 97 4.3l blazer would work your welcome to pull mine.

It would probably be similar to the one on the 4.3. Gm stuff...


A stock P pump should work. Other than not being modified for a remote reservoir. And if you had their performance P pump you might want to swap out the high pressure fitting. I think that is what is modded for the higher PSI.

You might be able to find a stock pump that can use a remote reservoir or mod it to work temporarily.

I have the hotrodded p-pump, but I was thinking it's a flow increase more than pressure?

[dan58]

Pull the pump apart and check the o-rings. The vane style pumps are very easy to rebuild. I find it odd that no fluid was being pumped at all. If no pressure is being built, then that pump should have been leaking fluid.

The problem is those damned cases. The one flowed great, but it leaked around the case and the pump itself. Is there any way to get a new seal kit for them? I'm not sure how to even go about tearing it apart.

[Mike]

The problem is those damned cases. The one flowed great, but it leaked around the case and the pump itself. Is there any way to get a new seal kit for them? I'm not sure how to even go about tearing it apart.

Call advance or autozone and ask. I know they sell rebuild kits with new o-rings/seals. I'm not sure on the application for your pump. The kits run about $10-15.

[frosty]

Got a part # for yours? Find out what the GPM is and you can probably find a stock P pump that is close. Even if its not I think a stock P pump flows enough GPM to handle full hydro. Its the TC pumps that cant cut it.

If one leaked but flowed and one didnt leak cant you just swap the cans and seals?

Have you called PSC yet? Not sure where they are located so I dont know when they open.

[dan58]

They're in TX. My pump model is SP1405.

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/-80-Newer-Hi-Performance-P-Series-Pump-w-can-.html

[frosty]

:frosty: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=saginaw+power+steering+pump+rebuild :flipoff2:

It appears easy enough to do if you can get the right seal kit. Or even swap cans and seals on what you have.

[frosty]

I'd start with the two bolts on the back of the can and see if you can remove it. Then go from there. I'd also check with PSC but I'd bet a saginaw pump seal kit is fairly universal and will work for you pumps.

[dan58]

Call advance or autozone and ask. I know they sell rebuild kits with new o-rings/seals. I'm not sure on the application for your pump. The kits run about $10-15.

http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19310

http://www.corvette-restoration.com/restoration/motor_and_transmission/060813_power_steering_pump_rebuild.htm

I *think* we can work with this. It may get a little RTV around the can to get it to deal better.

[dan58]

:frosty: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=saginaw+power+steering+pump+rebuild :flipoff2:


I was googling when you posted this. :lol:

It's just that outer seal, so a full rebuild can wait another day. This is where I think the RTV would help.

[Mike]

It's a fairly straight forward rebuild. Soak the o-rings in fluid before seating them.

[dan58]

From PSC....

Pumps are a 1995 Chevy G30, diesel specific. This is going to be a long day after 3 hours of sleep.

[Mike]

From PSC....

Pumps are a 1995 Chevy G30, diesel specific. This is going to be a long day after 3 hours of sleep.

I can swing by Andy's tonight if you think you are still going to be working.

[frosty]

Napa part #NPS 7262
Edelmann part #7918
Gates part #351160

All seal kits for that pump.

http://www.cardone.com/Imagesftp/96/967923-01.jpg

Thats nice to know for anyone wanting to throw a P pump in. Wonder what the stock GPM is?

Edit: Flow is 3.1-3.5 GPM and pressure is 1350-1450 PSI in stock form.

[dan58]

I can swing by Andy's tonight if you think you are still going to be working.

Sold. No chance we won't be working. I think I woke Andy up a bit ago. He sounds a little groggy. :lol:

And I'll add Duralast #7918. PSC said it's a tad different from the other pumps. Today is such a wash. :lol:


Napa part #NPS 7262
Edelmann part #7918
Gates part #351160

All seal kits for that pump.

http://www.cardone.com/Imagesftp/96/967923-01.jpg

Thats nice to know for anyone wanting to throw a P pump in. Wonder what the stock GPM is?

Edit: Flow is 3.1-3.5 GPM and pressure is 1350-1450 PSI in stock form.

[lowdown]

I feel like this guy today..:puke:
Hopefully caffeine and lunch will fix that.

[CrawfishStu]

you guys need a drop light that isn't 40,000 degrees.

[frosty]

Hey did you get a look at the back of the pump when you had them apart? Do you remember if the campack was convex or concave by any chance?

Concave (2nd on the top right)
http://www.cardone.com/Imagesftp/20/20860-01.jpg

Convex (2nd on the top right)
http://www.cardone.com/Imagesftp/20/20903-01.jpg

[lowdown]

If I remember right, it looked like the lower one.

[frosty]

If I remember right, it looked like the lower one.

Thanks. I realized after posting that it was probably the lower one due to be modded by PSC. :doh:

[doug38s]

Don't let there be a 4th: http://www.howeperformance.com/rockcrawling.html

they've had just as much issues with their stuff too. Plus the owner thinks his shit doesnt stink.

[dan58]

The pump whined like a sonofabitch all weekend. Sending the other one back to PSC, then will swap it later this week.

[Numidian]

Andy and I were discussing this the other day. Seems like everyone I know of who runs an aftermarket pump has burned up at least one.

What is different about the insides of the PSC and other high flow pumps from stocker pumps? How much of the high flow is just from the overdrive pulley?

I personally think that it's the overdrive pulley that winds up burning up the pumps, so I'm wondering if you'd see any better lifespan with a stock pulley on the aftermarket pump. Or would that just negate the aftermarket pump and be no better then stock?

[ehall]

A lot of times the whine is just bearing noise--I got a collection of pumps accidentally and they almost all whined, most had some visible corrosion on the shaft. My guess is most of the failures are just bearing failure, there's not much to these things.

[frosty]

I think the over drive pulley gets you better performance at low idle. Run in the higher RPM range and you are over spinning the pump and that might be what kills it. Although my guess is there are other factors as well and I bet if you had a proper sized reservoir for the system there would be less pump failure. The reservoirs we run are way to small for what we are doing, at least in fully hydro applications.

As far as whats different inside I think its vanes and probably some other internal mods/stuff. If you look at the pics I posted you can see the convex and concave pumps. The concave is a P132 and the convex is a P185. If you can find a P185 in a stock pump then jump on it. I havent found one yet. There were vehicles running them but it appears all pump builders have made the replacements P132s for some reason.

I have poured through pictures of pumps on Napa, Cardone and ACDelco with no luck. I found one pump on Cardone's site but I can not find anyone selling it or anything about it via google. Supposedly if you can find a pump from a 1702ish Caddy then you might be able to get a P185 pump. I am sure there are other applications as well but you'd need to find it on the original vehicle in a junk yard because you wont find it in a parts store.

You can also have places rebuild your pump to the better P185. Which is what PSC does among others. I think anyway. They also tweak the pump to get more pressure out of it as well but I think that is also something you can do yourself.

[Happy Bear]

Meh, I think a lot of the reliability issues we have are due to system design and how hard the pumps are worked. I don't think a stock pump would still be kicking in my truck. My most recent pump failure I actually sheered the input shaft to the pump. Something about spinning 5000 RPMs sawing the wheel locking the system at the end of the travel and spiking the pressure that it doesn't like.

Almost all the other pumps that have trouble are in completely owner-designed systems. Install one of these pumps in a 100% factory designed system/factory application and I think it would outlast a stock pump.

[PartsGuy]

Dan , I will call them in the morning and get one next day sat to the hotel in york for the show , and we can replace it at the show in the morning

Randy

[dan58]

Dan , I will call them in the morning and get one next day sat to the hotel in york for the show , and we can replace it at the show in the morning

Randy

No worries. Mine is down there getting fixed today and back for Friday. Shipping is a killer.

[CrawfishStu]

You might want to see if they can put a bigger fitting on the supply side of the pump and res and use a larger hose from pump to res.

Might try just taking the res off the bracket and holding it higher too. Just to rule out any supply issues.

Does the fluid in the res look airated after running it?

[dan58]

They actually said to use a -8 on the return side, but the cooler is the pinch point. I didn't have any problems with that previously though, but Lance did say it's a nice upgrade. That would call for a new cooler.

We can move it up in the bracket to get a really good flow, but it's way through the hood at that point. The side port is looking pretty good now.

It's majorly aerated in the resi.

[CrawfishStu]

the inline coolers like the howe ones are probably the best for flow. I'd save that for last.

[CrawfishStu]

I don't like the side port on my res. When i'm off camber it sucks air. I have been just keeping the res really full.

[dan58]

The side port for me would keep it out of the hood. I'm going to look for a relocation bracket to move the pump down too.

[dan58]

Found this.....hmmm Trying to get the pattern for it now.

http://s908.photobucket.com/albums/ac282/lvanyi/PS%20Brackets/

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac282/lvanyi/PS%20Brackets/JeepprojectPowersteeringpumpbkt003.jpg

[frosty]

What type of cooler do you have now? If the Derale heat sink you should be able to get 1/2" fittings for it. Going to 1/2" or -8 on all your return stuff would be a big help.

[dan58]

I have a B&M stacked plate. It has barbed fittings build in to it. No changing them out.

[frosty]

Gotcha. If you end up going with a new cooler I'd go with the Howe Stu suggested.

[dan58]

I have one of the in-line finned coolers sitting around too. I'm just not all that keen on them, and I don't have anywhere good to put it to get air flow.

[CrawfishStu]

Mine is way up against the firewall and even with rear steer I haven't seen it get too hot.

[b4wscrambler]

I have found the stacked plate coolers to be way to restrictive for power steering.

Yes I have done back to back testing.:flipoff2:

[frosty]

I have found the stacked plate coolers to be way to restrictive for power steering

Yeah its recommended to run either a tube and fin cooler or a heat sink in terms of flow. Only difference might be the Setrab coolers which I think are stacked plate but high flow.

[dan58]

I have this one:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70264/

The guru that put my trans together swears tube and fin are the worst coolers known to man. He's 100% stacked plate. I'd bet they cool better because they hold fluid a little longer. I had zero problems with it before. It's mostly due to the ram mounting and line from the resi to pump, although the fluid level is always higher than the level of the input.

[Ripster]

I'm using this one and I'm not pleased with it's performance:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Econo-Cool-Transmission-Oil-Cooler-Imperial_6014720-P_895_R%7CGRPCOOLAMS_555607634___
Pump whines and fluid is hot.

[CrawfishStu]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-15850/

I love their products.

[Ripster]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-15850/

Salty, but I like it. Sure looks a lot less restrictive.

[Broncolou]

Used setrab on ebay....lots of nascar take-off stuff to find

[frosty]

I dont think a transmission flows as much fluid as your steering but I could be wrong. Thats part of the reason a stacked plate works better there. They cool well but arent good for steering.

Rippy, did you put a temp strip on your reservoir yet? I've got one if you want it, only thing is it doesnt register until 150° or higher. I'd have to check. Anyway I put on on my reservoir and in the couple of trips I had it on it never got hot enough to hit the lowest point. I would like to get one that starts at a lower temp, just havent gotten around to it.

[Mike]

Try this cooler:

http://www.carparts.com/autoparts/ItemBrowse/c-10618/s-10401/p-100000189424/mediaCode-CP/appId-100000189424/Pr-p_CATENTRY_ID:100000189424

[CrawfishStu]

I wish they would list some kind of flow rate. Like make 25psi standard or something.

[Z28YJ]

I dont think a transmission flows as much fluid as your steering but I could be wrong.

General rule of thumb is approx. 3 quarts per minute going through the cooler.

[frosty]

General rule of thumb is approx. 3 quarts per minute going through the cooler.

So with 4 quarts to a gallon and the steering pump flowing 3 - 4.5 gallons per minute the steering system is flowing a lot more than the transmission. Which is why the stacked plate coolers work so well with the transmission but not steering.

So I'd say even though it was working for you before, a change in your cooler might help more than you think.

[dan58]

Call me stubborn....

The one Stu has can't flow that much more that the one I have. The stacked plates seem to function on every other rig? PSC even sells the stacked plate on their website. Steering = black voodoo

I have never had much faith in the heat sink coolers because the fluid runs straight through them with so little retention time. How can they really get the fluid cooled sufficiently?

The other problem is that I just plain don't want to pull the entire front end apart to get to the coolers. :lol: It's a miserable SOB because everything goes in in a specific order. Everything...grill, coolers, likely radiator will have to come out.

I do have a line on a steering pump relocation kit that will drop the pump about 4 inches, and I checked the clearance last night. It will fit, and that will make like a whole lot easier too. We're changing the ram mount a little bit too.

[Happy Bear]

Less retention time = less restriction= less heat build-up.

The heat sink coolers are very efficient as long as the system is set up properly and they are seeing some air flow.

That being said I have a stacked plate cooler plumbed in after my heat sink cooler. I was generating a lot of heat because of other problems in my system and the stacked plate cooler helped significantly. When I am trail riding the reservoir for my steering system is ambient temperature. As soon as you start racing and really moving the fluid around in the system it gets pretty warm but still does not overheat.

You also want to use the side exit of the reservoir because it helps eliminate turbulence and aeration in the system. It didn't make sense to me until PSC explained it.

[CrawfishStu]

Like everything else...it's a trade off.

Flow vs cooling. I linked a lot of past problems to flow.

[Happy Bear]

Like everything else...it's a trade off.

Flow vs cooling. I linked a lot of past problems to flow.
Flow is absolutely crucial to a hydro system. I still want to relocate my valve and reservoir closer to the pump and increase line diameter on the return and supply.

[dan58]

Thanks to TJTank and Randy, I'll be swapping in a new PSC pump and reservoir with side ports this evening. I got new fittings for the ram, and Andy is making a new bracket for the tie rod. That should get everything squared away to quiet down the pump and make it happy.

[Numidian]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-15850/

I love their products.

Rippy, here's a cheaper version of the same thing, just without the attached fan. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-15851/ But it's still a stacked plate cooler. I question if that's really going to flow that much better then the stacked plate coolers with 3/8" input/ouput.


I'm using this one and I'm not pleased with it's performance:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Econo-Cool-Transmission-Oil-Cooler-Imperial_6014720-P_895_R%7CGRPCOOLAMS_555607634___
Pump whines and fluid is hot.

I think something like you already have but with 1/2" input/output would be the way to go. That should have very little flow restriction, but also have the fluid running through the cooler for a longer time then the single straight through aluminum fin coolers.

[CrawfishStu]

We need to do a comparison someone buy a bunch of these we can pour fluid through.

[frosty]

I have found the stacked plate coolers to be way to restrictive for power steering.

Yes I have done back to back testing.:flipoff2:


We need to do a comparison someone buy a bunch of these we can pour fluid through.

Someone has sort of. Plus a search on Pirate will or should tell you the same thing. Stacked plate coolers, at least most as I think there are some high flow ones, dont work well for power steering.

But it appears to be working for Dan and its to much work to change it so he is keeping his poor performing stacked plate cooler. :lol::flipoff2:

[dan58]

:flipoff2:

I swapped out the pump and reservoir, and Andy changed the ram mount and fittings. Crossing my fingers it works.

[Numidian]

Also make sure that your ram fittings are at 12:00, just to make sure no air gets trapped in the cylinder.

[frosty]

Also make sure that your ram fittings are at 12:00, just to make sure no air gets trapped in the cylinder.

They really only need to be that way when bled. Otherwise it doesnt matter what orientation they are in.

[Numidian]

They really only need to be that way when bled. Otherwise it doesnt matter what orientation they are in.

I've read both ways actually, but I agree with you.

[lowdown]

Frost, I thought that same thing but according to PSC, they have to be @ 12 so they don't accumulate air. Also, the tie rod is hosed..it flipped foward while Dan was bleeding the system which turned it into a (...

[dan58]

PSC told me the ports have to be at 12:00 all the time, fwiw. Tie rod is hosed mm

[atjeep]

I am a little slow, why/how is the tie rod hosed?

[Mike]

The tie rod is now u shaped

[atjeep]

ascii art. i get it now.

[poopypants]

dan saw the jeep at the jeep show...i thought it looked like shit

[dan58]

dan saw the jeep at the jeep show...i thought it looked like shit

Why didn't you stop to say hello? Fag. :flipoff2:

[poopypants]

no one was in the tent...plus it was hot as balls