News to me

[MDMike]

Just got word that a dump truck driver got pulled over and had his fuel tested. Apparently the state failed him and made him park his truck because his fuel was "too clear". :confused:

I know they randomly pull guys over and test their fuel for dye (offroad fuel) in the tanks, but I've never heard of anyone being forced to park the truck because the fuel was too clear. The driver said the truck runs great and hasn't had any problems.

The only 2 things that cross my mind are a) the guy is mixing clear Kerosene with his fuel to make it start easier in the cold or b) he's making his own fuel and supplementing it with ULSD.

I've searched and I can't find anything about fuel failing for being too clear. My station manager said the fuel has a slight tint to it when he pumps it into a test can. Anybody ever heard anything like this before? Is the state starting to crack down on guys making thier own fuel? This is all news to me!

[dan58]

I bet the state wants their road tax money, and guys who make it on their own are not paying the tax. If you can dream it, we can tax it.

You'd have to add a shitload of K1 to your tank to make the dizzle look clear.

[Jack]

4th Amedment folks. What Prompted the search?

[Brandon95yj]

mike,

was he filling up with your fuel?

[MDMike]

4th Amedment folks. What Prompted the search?

Its a random thing for truck drivers apparently. Random inspections for weight/air lines etc. aren't out of the ordinary either. I've even heard of troopers wandering around at events like tractor pulls or farm shows, sticking diesel truck tanks, and announcing license plate numbers over the loud speakers for farmers that run the offroad dyed fuel in their trucks.

IMHO, Dan nailed it. No tax on home made fuel. Does anyone know if the home made stuff comes out clear when its done? I've never seen any before.

[MDMike]

mike,

was he filling up with your fuel?

Yup, in Thurmont.

[dan58]

Does anyone know if the home made stuff comes out clear when its done? I've never seen any before.

Very well could. I'd bet the stick they use is just like the ones for dipping USTs for level. It probably reacts with the dye.

[Kack]

When the tax man showed up at my buddy's farm in VA, he wanted to dip the tank in their farm truck. His dad's a lawyer.

Tax man "open your fuel tank sir, I'd like to check it"
Dad "looks to me like there's a door on that fuel tank sir"
Tax man "Yes please open it"
Dad "You need a warrant to make me open a closed door sir"
Tax man "open the door"
Dad "show me a warrant"
Tax man leaves to get warrant. Dad drains off road fuel from truck that never drives off the farm. Buys 5 Gal of USLD. tax man oks it.

Pretty sure they need a warrant to check fuel unless the driver ok'd the search

[frosty]

Pretty sure they need a warrant to check fuel unless the driver ok'd the search

Probably not if a CDL is involved. And try the warrant business leaving a tractor pull or farm show and see where that lands you.

[MDMike]

When the tax man showed up at my buddy's farm in VA, he wanted to dip the tank in their farm truck. His dad's a lawyer.

Tax man "open your fuel tank sir, I'd like to check it"
Dad "looks to me like there's a door on that fuel tank sir"
Tax man "Yes please open it"
Dad "You need a warrant to make me open a closed door sir"
Tax man "open the door"
Dad "show me a warrant"
Tax man leaves to get warrant. Dad drains off road fuel from truck that never drives off the farm. Buys 5 Gal of USLD. tax man oks it.

Pretty sure they need a warrant to check fuel unless the driver ok'd the search

We sell offroad fuel at our station here in Westminster and we had a guy try to come in and fill his "farm truck" with the dyed fuel. He told us until he was blue in the face that his neighbor, who is a state trooper, said that it was o.k. for him to run it in his "farm truck". I told him he was mistaken and he got upset. I also told him, he can put it in the can and dump it into the truck as far as I was concerned, but he wasn't going to put the nozzle in the truck and fill it up. Its not worth the state showing up and slapping me with a fine to sell a tank load of offroad fuel.

Back to the original topic: Does anyone else have any experience making their own fuel, and if so, does it come out clearer than regular ULSD? Also, has anyone heard of someone getting a hard time about thier diesel fuel being too clear?

[b4wheeler]

A while ago there was a guy in the BelAir/Fallston srea that made bio-diesel and a few guys were running it cut with their ULSD.. Govt wanted him to start paying taxes and that killed any profit that he would make.... So he stoppe3d selling...
Just another example of the govt. killing the little guy for trying to make it in this economy....

[MDMike]

A while ago there was a guy in the BelAir/Fallston srea that made bio-diesel and a few guys were running it cut with their ULSD.. Govt wanted him to start paying taxes and that killed any profit that he would make.... So he stoppe3d selling...
Just another example of the govt. killing the little guy for trying to make it in this economy....

I agree with you 100% We used to sell K1 and had to apply to the state once a month to get our tax $$ back from them. After they denied us twice, we quit selling it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about people making and running their own fuel. I would do it if I had time in the day and access to the veggie oil. I just don't want it coming back to bite me in the @ss when they get in trouble for doing it (that is to say if that is indeed what happened with this guy).

[67temp]

color:

http://www.ezbiodiesel.com/Photo%20Gallery.htm

[Jack]

Frosty... are you saying the driver agrees to unwarranted searches when they apply for a CDL? Does that mean I am not subject?

Jack

[frosty]

I dont know all the ins and outs of the CDL but I am pretty sure they have a different set of rules. I wouldnt say you might not be subjected to being dipped if a DOT cop decides to pull you over while towing.

[ehall]

Well we're dealing with second hand info here. A cop can do a safety inspection pretty much anytime (that's the job), and can also look through the windows and whatnot for anything that is plain sight (no expectation to privacy) but invasive searches typically require permission, a warrant, or reasonable suspicion (a sniffer dog, for example). I don't believe the cops can walk around a parking lot with a stick, but it's possible. If they do, it's because somebody told them to do it, which is a separate point from constitutional.

[CrawfishStu]

Let's not forget that a license is an agreement to allow you to operate a vehicle on state owned and maintained roads. That vehicle needs to be registered. I would have to look into the laws on licensing and registration to find out if while on state roads you aren't giving DOT the right to check what fuel you are running while using your license.

While it's on your property, I don't think that there is anything short of you giving them permission or them having a warrant that would make you let them test your tank.

When I had a CDL, they went over all kinds of thing that were different between you and a standard license. It included stricter fines and penalties for violations and some things in there about submitting to substance tests.

[RatLabGuy]

More important/direct - is it actually illegal to use alternative fuels? Or just to not pay tax?
Seems to me that they would need to prove that you had not paid the requisite tax on the fuel.
i know in NC, it is doen based on quarterly payments, you send in $$ every 3 months as an estimated tax to compensate for not paying HUT.

all you have to do is say that you just started and haven't yet completed the first quarter and hence do not owe the tax yet...

[getblown5.9]

not sure if its legal, but in some states there are cops who will pull up behid you at a redlight or while you are in the gas station grabbing a drink, without asking, nor telling you what they are doing, if they can get the tank open fast enough to dip the stick in, if you get caught with red, its your ass. thats why alot of guys will put locking gas caps on their trucks if they are running red illegally.

also, a year or two ago when fuel was sky high, i heard the state police or DOT had a road block at the conowingo dam, and they were dipping every commercial truck that was crossing the dam, and alot of guys ended up with some big fines.

i know a guy who is currently serving a short jail sentence for repeat offenses of running red fuel in his rig on the road. they caught him twice and he was fined etc, and on the third time they came to his house where he had tanks of fuel delivered/stored and they locked him up due to the fact that it was his 3rd offense and he had large quantities of it he was still using. i didnt know you could get jail time from it as it was only a monetary issue due to the taxes, but if you get caught enough and have no regard for the law, then jail time is what you get.

[dan58]

More important/direct - is it actually illegal to use alternative fuels? Or just to not pay tax?
Seems to me that they would need to prove t

It's the tax.

I don't think they need to prove it. The user/maker has to prove that he has paid them.

[davenjeip]

I dont know all the ins and outs of the CDL but I am pretty sure they have a different set of rules. I wouldnt say you might not be subjected to being dipped if a DOT cop decides to pull you over while towing.

In a commercial vehicle, they can pull you over at any time for no reason other than to do an inspection. I don't see checking fuel being out of line for a level one inspection, although I don't think they've ever checked it on any of mine.

Government just implemented a new bureaucracy for the trucking industry as of January 1st, so I wouldn't be surprised to see the number of inspections increased.

[RatLabGuy]

It's the tax.

I don't think they need to prove it. The user/maker has to prove that he has paid them.

...and... if they aren't due yet? What would you do?

[hey...hey]

hey MDMike...our buddy SJ, his dad runs into inspection roadblocks with his diesel when towing the horse trailer. the main purpose is to check for dyed fuel, from what SJ says. pretty much when leaving a show or something.

however, I have never heard of having too clear of diesel. you would have to do some major brewing to make it clear. every diesel I have seen has been pretty much piss yellow, or close to it.

on a side note, we had an ambulance down here at work with a running problem. well it turns out, they were running "off road diesel" (6.0s and 6.4s especially, don't like dyed diesel). turns out, the fire company buys it from the local county, and they have been running dyed diesel for years. just goes to show you, the govt. will screw the average joe and then turns their head at one of their own.

[robieyukon]

The 4th Amend says you are protected from unreasonable searches and seizures. If they place you under arrest they can do whatever they want. Otherwise advise the officer he should get a warrant, most likely they wont because the judge is doesnt want to deal with diesel bs.

[MDMike]

on a side note, we had an ambulance down here at work with a running problem. well it turns out, they were running "off road diesel" (6.0s and 6.4s especially, don't like dyed diesel). turns out, the fire company buys it from the local county, and they have been running dyed diesel for years. just goes to show you, the govt. will screw the average joe and then turns their head at one of their own.

Huh, thats cute. The county can run their diesel's on offroad fuel, but I get slapped with a huge fine and have to shut down my station if the state catches me putting offroad fuel in a customer's vehicle. :rolleyes:

[RatLabGuy]

on a side note, we had an ambulance down here at work with a running problem. well it turns out, they were running "off road diesel" (6.0s and 6.4s especially, don't like dyed diesel). turns out, the fire company buys it from the local county, and they have been running dyed diesel for years. just goes to show you, the govt. will screw the average joe and then turns their head at one of their own.


Huh, thats cute. The county can run their diesel's on offroad fuel, but I get slapped with a huge fine and have to shut down my station if the state catches me putting offroad fuel in a customer's vehicle. :rolleyes:

Actually, I was talking to a buddy who is an Aberdeen cop the other day.
He said they're except from the state HU taxes etc. IIRC all city/county use is.
So it's actually not illegal at all for them to use the offroad diesel b/c they aren't shirking a tax liability.

He said the sad thing is, even though they are exempt, the dept still buys all the feelt gas from the same local station, and pays full price... b/c somebody knew somebody and that station got the contract.

[MDMike]

He said the sad thing is, even though they are exempt, the dept still buys all the feelt gas from the same local station, and pays full price... b/c somebody knew somebody and that station got the contract.

Man, I'd love to be that guy! :D

[Broncolou]

My brother looked into running biodiesel and used tranny oil. If you apply for the proper tax form for this type of situation, and carried supplied paperwork you are legal. When filing it is your responsibility to report and pay road tax on mileage driven on your records. After applying for paperwork, you are given papers to carry in the truck for just this situation. I believe it is for waste oil and home made fuels. I am not sure if it covers off road fuel or not. Sorry for the very general info but it was a mute point when he did the math for effort vs savings.

[phillyzj]

hey MDMike...our buddy SJ, his dad runs into inspection roadblocks with his diesel when towing the horse trailer. the main purpose is to check for dyed fuel, from what SJ says. pretty much when leaving a show or something.

however, I have never heard of having too clear of diesel. you would have to do some major brewing to make it clear. every diesel I have seen has been pretty much piss yellow, or close to it.

on a side note, we had an ambulance down here at work with a running problem. well it turns out, they were running "off road diesel" (6.0s and 6.4s especially, don't like dyed diesel). turns out, the fire company buys it from the local county, and they have been running dyed diesel for years. just goes to show you, the govt. will screw the average joe and then turns their head at one of their own.


not sure if it's because it's dyed or if it's because i'm pretty sure the ORD is low sulfer not ultra low sulfer content which is fine in older diesels but i can see the newer ones having issues with it.

[theshocker]

on a side note, we had an ambulance down here at work with a running problem. well it turns out, they were running "off road diesel" (6.0s and 6.4s especially, don't like dyed diesel). turns out, the fire company buys it from the local county, and they have been running dyed diesel for years. just goes to show you, the govt. will screw the average joe and then turns their head at one of their own.

i think my 7.3 runs better and gets better mileage on "red" fuel:thumbsup::D

[Happy Bear]

just goes to show you, the govt. will screw the average joe and then turns their head at one of their own.
I would bet no govt agencies pay tax on fuel; maybe not?

[dan58]

I would bet no govt agencies pay tax on fuel; maybe not?

Correct.