Would my rig stand a chance in Class 3?

[Arya Ebrahimi]

I'm considering tossing my name in the ring for RCROCS next year, and wonder if my rig would stand a chance in Class 3.

Specs would be

22RE
AW4
D300 4:1 w/ front/rear burn
Toy axles
38x12.50 TSLs currently, thinking about jumping up to some stickies(BFG or Maxxis) if I do compete.
Leaf sprung front/rear
Wheelbase = 108
Exo-cage
Mastercraft military seats and 4 points

I'd be willing to make some changes to be competitive, if deemed necessary.

Thoughts?

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz14/97JeepTJ2/Potts%20Dec5_6%202009/DSC00456.jpg

[Numidian]

Do you just want to compete or do you want be competitive?

You more than likely won't be competitive, but if you're smart you could compete just for fun and probably not tear your rig up too much.

[Arya Ebrahimi]

What's the point in competing if you can't be competitive? :confused: lol

[Numidian]

That's why I'm not competing anymore

[Happy Bear]

What is in the diffs?

Your front approach angle looks good, but the rear frame looks like it sticks awfully far back past the tires. Would you consider linking the rear and shortening the frame? Maybe shorten up the wheelbase a little at the same time.

Grason took 1st place this year in the series with a 106" wheelbase(correct me if I'm wrong Grason). So you don't have to be in a 100" truck to dodge the cones.

I would definitely stay with 37's if you are going to switch to sticky's. 39" sticky's will put a serious hurting on Toyota axles, you'll likely be broke after the 1st course. Competition/Racing is a whole different ball game. You can take a very reliable trail rig that rarely breaks or has problems and guaranteed after 20 minutes of race time something will of come apart. It is important that you prep the truck by checking suspension and drivetrain bolts before every event. Having a reliable vehicle is a huge critical success factor in competition. You can be the best driver but if you're truck falls apart you can't win.

[Happy Bear]

Oh yea, and I hope you're not attached to that windshield.:lol:

I would remove all the glass before competing.:thumbsup:

[Arya Ebrahimi]

I'm honestly not that worried about tearing this rig up. I'm getting kinda bored with it, and it's served its purpose. If I can get a good season out of it and have fun, I'll be happy.

Currently the diffs are both welded, but I have an ARB for one(thinking rear at this point) and am not opposed to getting another one.

The front is a HP 4.88 w/ Cryo'ed gears, longfield 30-splines, ARP hub/knuckle studs, and chromo hub gears.

Rear is V6 4.88, otherwise stock.

I'm totally open to linking the rear, and have actually been thinking about it for some time. Just hasn't given me any problems on the trail, so it hasn't been a priority.

As for the glass.... :lol: I wish I had a pic of my windshield right now. Let's just say it's due to be removed anyway. The rear window doesn't come out(exo) but I'd remove the rest of the glass no problem.

Are doors required? I have "door bars" inside the cab that protect the seat/hip area, but nothing higher up.

I hear you on prep, that's why I started this thread now instead of April :D

Thanks for the advice!

[Happy Bear]

If you link the rear, shorten the wheelbase up to 105", install the rear ARB, a dual handle cutting brake, and add some 37" stickies you would have a competitive setup in class 3 IMO.

The nice thing about the Toyota axles is they are fairly narrow. Most of the guys in class 3 are running full width axles, sure it makes them stable, but it's a lot harder to dodge the cones.

I would also try to move whatever weight to the rear of the truck that you easily can. It looks like your weight bias is pretty bad. Most rigs in Class 3 aren't all that balanced anyways though, so you won't be at too much of a disadvantage. Although, it is getting more competitive though, I bet the Balducci's rig is pretty balanced.

If you have door bars then you don't need doors.

What do you have going on for driveshafts?

[Arya Ebrahimi]

Link, shorten, ARB, 37 stickies.....check. No problems here.

For the cutting brakes, is the dual handle for front/rear or left/right on the rear? I would think all of the above would be advantageous....

As far as weight bias, my fuel tank is behind the rear axle, and the battery is in the toolbox on the passenger side directly behind the cab. I've never weighed it, but I'm not sure what else I could move to shift the weight around.

Front driveshaft is square, rear is home made 1/4" wall(sched 40).

[Happy Bear]

For the cutting brakes, is the dual handle for front/rear or left/right on the rear? I would think all of the above would be advantageous....


It really depends how complicated you want to get. They make them in all different configurations
1 in 2 out single lever dual action
1 in 2 out dual lever single action
2 in 2 out single lever dual action

The simplest to plumb would be a 2 in 2 out single lever, push for front brakes, pull for rear brakes. This would not allow you to take full advantage of the ARB though.

The next simplest method is to use a 1 in 2 out dual lever single action. In order to do this you would need to relocate your proportioining valve as it is most likely mounted on the rear portion of the frame. You would need to move the proportioing valve ahead of the cutting brake, then run two individual brake lines to the rear axle allowing you to independently lock either rear tire, or pull both handles to lock the entire rear axle. The disadvantage to this setup is it does not allow you to lock the front brakes for rear burns. Given that you will have an ARB I would prefer this setup over a 2 in 2 out because the individual rear brakes make pivoting MUCH easier, which is EXTREMLY valuable. Rear burns are generally ineffective, even with the proper conditions and technique applied. Also, it's pretty easy to load the front brakes up with the pedal and drive through the rear brakes if you are in a position where a rear burn will really help you out.

If you want to get tricky and lock up any wheel individually the best setup is two 1 in 2 out single lever dual action cutting brakes. In order to set this up you plumb the brakes left and right vs front and rear. In order for this setup to work you need to be running identical master cylinders and brake calipers on all four corners. You do away with proportioning and plumb the brakes left and right side. The other option to achieve this result is running two 2 in 2 out cutting brakes plumbed similar(Driver Front Driver Rear into one cutting brake and Passanger Front Passanger Rear into the other). Running this setup will greatly increase the amount of brakeline that you have as you need to split the front and rear lines and have the proportioning valve ahead of the cutting brakes, the you will have 4 lines out of the cutting brakes each running to an individual corner, a way over complicated brake setup IMO.

Also realize, when you are doing a front dig with an ARB in most situations you will still want to lock up both rear tires. The true advantage to the ARB is when you are in 4WD.


As far as weight bias, my fuel tank is behind the rear axle, and the battery is in the toolbox on the passenger side directly behind the cab. I've never weighed it, but I'm not sure what else I could move to shift the weight around.
Those were mostly the items I was thinking of battery and fuel cell. If you are shortening up the tube bed and you can find a decent design to put your toolbox at the very back I would do that as well.


Front driveshaft is square, rear is home made 1/4" wall(sched 40).
What kind of yokes/joints at the 300?

[zucruisers]

a few more things to add...btw it would be great to have you run in class 3, there's not enough yota's showing the 1 ton crowd how its done :cool:

weigh distribution is definitely a concern, some of the climbs can be very tough

im not sure if i would change your wheelbase very much, it at all...turn in your steering stops, having front dig, rear arb, and cutting brakes(the dual handle is for left/right in the rear) and it'll turn pretty sharp, zach's rig is at 112" if i remember right and he manages to do ok even without cutting brakes

linking the rear is almost a must, a good pair of shocks for the front to help the leaves, front/rear suck down winches will be helpful, and if at all possible lower it too

when you swap in the aw4/300, try to get a flat belly, skinned with some uhmw is a huge help

i dont remember what you have for steering other than histeer, but hydro assist with a good pump and cooler is a must have, 5th stud added to your knuckles is some good insurance to help keep your steering together, i'll have the knuckles from the tracker available soon that are already setup for that if you want them

beadlocks of some sort are a huge help, aluminum is a nice weight saver for your 22re, if your going to stickies you'll need 17's anyways...i was thinking of selling my current wheels to change to something new if you'd be interested in them:lol:

[Arya Ebrahimi]

Thanks for the explanation on the cutting brakes. I think I'll just do the rears individually.

The D300 is not in yet, but it will be yota flanges/joints. Flat belly is on the list.

I'm not sure what I'll do on the wheelbase, but I'll cross that bridge when I link it. I'm thinking I'll link it and trim the frame down as much as possible. I'd rather not have to lop off the back of the bed because it will look really strange I think, but we'll see how it works.

I don't have hydro assist installed, but it is laying on the shop floor :p

I have ARP studs, and I'm not too worried about my knuckles. After the second time I torqued them, they haven't come loose in over a year(check them w/ the torque wrench before every run).

Beadlocks are assumed, just forgot to mention them. What wheels do you have? (Is this Dom or John?)

[RatLabGuy]

if you're interested in fast racing and don't mind some driving time, you'd be perfect for the ECORS series B-class as-is right now. Just an alternative.

[Arya Ebrahimi]

What/where is ECORS?

Edit: Nevermind, looked it up. That would be a HAUL for me. I'm living in Philly for work right now, so it'd be at least an 8 hour drive to Uwharrie, probably closer to 10. And the rest of the races are even further.

Rausch is about 2 hours, which is about perfect.

[Happy Bear]

im not sure if i would change your wheelbase very much, it at all...zach's rig is at 112" if i remember right and he manages to do ok even without cutting brakes
112?! Wow! What is the wheelbase on the tracker?


The D300 is not in yet, but it will be yota flanges/joints.
Good choice. Can you carry 1 spare square driveshaft and use it front or rear?, or does the square not clear the trans pan in the front?

[RatLabGuy]

What/where is ECORS?

Edit: Nevermind, looked it up. That would be a HAUL for me. I'm living in Philly for work right now, so it'd be at least an 8 hour drive to Uwharrie, probably closer to 10. And the rest of the races are even further.

Rausch is about 2 hours, which is about perfect.

Wow, from philly - yea you're right, but Uwharrie? None of them are there? And there's a plan for one to be at Harlan thsi year, that will be bad-ass ;-)
http://www.ecors.com/

I'll prob be making the trek for most of them, I like the fast driving in a stocker rig ;-)

[RatLabGuy]

hey as a side note - was there alot to fitting the AW4 into there and mating it w/ the 22r? I have the A340h in my Runner.. it's "ok" for now but I don't expect i to live too much longer, already thinking about replacement options.

[domba]

I have ARP studs, and I'm not too worried about my knuckles. After the second time I torqued them, they haven't come loose in over a year(check them w/ the torque wrench before every run).

Beadlocks are assumed, just forgot to mention them. What wheels do you have? (Is this Dom or John?)


On the studs, remember what happick said about a reliable trail rig being a broken pile in competition...they won't hold up, guaranteed, might wanna grab a set of the six shooters while they're on special.

The beadlocks are 17x8 or 9, don't remember, aluminum, they have rings from campbell ent. on them and we're not really sure of the actual brand.

And why are you scared to bring this up at the shop, promise we wouldn't laugh:flipoff2:

[dan58]

I think Zach is 108, not 112.

[zucruisers]

Arya, the wheels i have are campbell ent. like dom said...i think they built the rings or had them made, and welded them onto a set of 17" aluminum wheels...they're 17x8, plus the beadlocks, and 4.5" backspace


112?! Wow! What is the wheelbase on the tracker?

105"

[Arya Ebrahimi]

112?! Wow! What is the wheelbase on the tracker?


Good choice. Can you carry 1 spare square driveshaft and use it front or rear?, or does the square not clear the trans pan in the front?

Rear is a lot longer than the front currently. Don't know if the square will clear the trans pan with a flat belly, guess I'll find out.


hey as a side note - was there alot to fitting the AW4 into there and mating it w/ the 22r? I have the A340h in my Runner.. it's "ok" for now but I don't expect i to live too much longer, already thinking about replacement options.

I haven't actually put the AW4 in yet, but I've read that you take the bellhousing off the A340, bolt it onto the AW4, and you're basically ready to go.


On the studs, remember what happick said about a reliable trail rig being a broken pile in competition...they won't hold up, guaranteed, might wanna grab a set of the six shooters while they're on special.

The beadlocks are 17x8 or 9, don't remember, aluminum, they have rings from campbell ent. on them and we're not really sure of the actual brand.

And why are you scared to bring this up at the shop, promise we wouldn't laugh:flipoff2:

I'll think about the knuckles some more. Beadlocks I may take you up on. I actually was texting with Tim about this last night and brought it up a couple weeks ago. Guess you didn't hear me.

[zucruisers]

I think Zach is 108, not 112.

i was thinking his rig was extra long...i know it turns like a schoolbus when i used to move it at the shop:lol:


hey as a side note - was there alot to fitting the AW4 into there and mating it w/ the 22r? I have the A340h in my Runner.. it's "ok" for now but I don't expect i to live too much longer, already thinking about replacement options.

i've been doing research about this, kind of, since im trying to run a version of this trans too...

the A340h and aw4 are internally, basically the same...remove the bellhousing, torque converter, and possibly the pump/input shaft from your a340h, install those parts into an aw4...and bolt it in place with your choice of tcase...another option is using an A340f from a 95+ truck, 4runner, etc..and getting an adapter from marlin to run toy gear drive tcases:cool:

there is a ton of info out there about these transmissions as they were used in volvos, toys, jeeps, isuzu, trackers...there's a few cheap tricks to help them shift better and last longer too

[Numidian]

I have ARP studs, and I'm not too worried about my knuckles. After the second time I torqued them, they haven't come loose in over a year(check them w/ the torque wrench before every run).
Just keep checking them with the torque wrench

On the studs, remember what happick said about a reliable trail rig being a broken pile in competition...they won't hold up, guaranteed, might wanna grab a set of the six shooters while they're on special.


Most of the formula toy guys out west who compete are just running stock knuckles...

[poopypants]

dude...pm kbjeepin but id bet your pretty close to class 2 unless i missed something ...maybe have to add some bed material but your setup would be much better suited for2 imo...

[Happy Bear]

Even with that long ass wheelbase? I haven't compared the Class 2 courses to Class 3 courses close enough to know, but my guess would be the climbs aren't steep enough in class 2 to warrant a 108" wheelbase and it would be much easier to navigate the class 2 courses in a short wheelbase TJ.

Also, in class 3 most of his competition will be on full widths and his narrow axles will be an advantage and his wheelbase will be in check with the rest of the competition and on par for the difficulty of climbs.

[dan58]

Can you SAS a toy for Class 2?

[poopypants]

i dont know the ruling on that...i think it came up a couple time but when they start talking tech i tune out...
my thinking is that the way the truck sits now it MIGHT be easier to run class 2...i think going into the 3rd?4th?? year now of rcrocs a leaf sprung yota probably wont be competitive in class 3...would i try it? hell yes because its RCROCS..it was designed almost specifically to talk sh!t to your local friends on teh internetz
to be competitve and again this is just my opinion, a class three truck needs to be low and slinky, have some sort of steering assist and be able to transition seemlessly (digs burns cuttingbrakes blahblahblah)
the course master accounts for all that stuff when laying it out...class 2 is tight and technical and that would be a problem for a 107"wb truck not being able to dig...but if you take advantage of the climbs/decents its usually a wash in the end...
plus i know you said you dont care about the truck but barrel rolling down a concrete hill a couple times on a saturday and it will be sawzall time fosho...

[kbjeepin]

If you want I can look into it to see exactly where you would fit. I have been reading and letting your peeps help you out without jumping in. I will say if you did a solid axle swap class 2 is out due to the suspension swap and the frame mods. Send me pics and full specs and I could look it over.

[Happy Bear]

to be competitve and again this is just my opinion, a class three truck needs to be low and slinky, have some sort of steering assist and be able to transition seemlessly (digs burns cuttingbrakes blahblahblah)
He is going to have all of these features if he commits to running.

[Arya Ebrahimi]

I thought about running Class 2, but I SAS'ed my truck and the frame, although somewhat close to stock, has been cut off and replaced from the cab back.

Class 3 is really my only option.

[Happy Bear]

I thought about running Class 2, but I SAS'ed my truck and the frame, although somewhat close to stock, has been cut off and replaced from the cab back.

Class 3 is really my only option.
A toyota pickup is probably the worst class 2 truck you could pick, I think Class 3 will be great for your rig. A good driver/spotter team with the right strategy is what it takes as long as your rig is on par.

[poopypants]

yeah i forgot about the sas thing...i say go for it...its only one day event and if grason can win with that dumbass spotter anything is possible:flipoff2:

[Jwlman]

Thanks for the explanation on the cutting brakes. I think I'll just do the rears individually.

Would this qualify as "independent wheel manipulation" which the rules say is not allowed in class 3?

[Arya Ebrahimi]

Would this qualify as "independent wheel manipulation" which the rules say is not allowed in class 3?

No, I'm pretty sure that's been clarified to mean no forced articulation.

[Grason]

yeah i forgot about the sas thing...i say go for it...its only one day event and if grason can win with that dumbass spotter anything is possible:flipoff2:



we really won because we are that awesome.





























































:flipoff2::flipoff2::flipoff2::flipoff2:

[Happy Bear]

No, I'm pretty sure that's been clarified to mean no forced articulation.
Correct, you can't have a suck down winch on each corner or manipulate hydrulic or air controlled suspension corners independently.

[94krawler]

I have ARP studs, and I'm not too worried about my knuckles. After the second time I torqued them, they haven't come loose in over a year(check them w/ the torque wrench before every run).

FWIW when I ran ARP's I broke knuckles. They would crack between the stud hole and the hole for the highsteer arm and split open with next to no notice. With stock studs the stud's broke, usually flush with the knuckle. I ran typical modded toy pump with HA in a non comp enviroment. The 5th stud deffinitly would have helped keep the toy knuckle reliable.


I had Zero stud/knuckle failures till I went with HA.

[BBoarder]

yeah i forgot about the sas thing...i say go for it...its only one day event and if kane can win with that dumbass spotter anything is possible:flipoff2:

:stir:
:popcorn:

[the hebrew hammer]

:stir:
:popcorn:


if kane could win with a dumbass spotter, why couldnt you? so you should probably bury your face back in someones ass before you scare small childern :thumbsup:

[Happy Bear]

How's it coming? Have you started making mods for the comp season? You should do a build thread in general discussion here so we can all keep up with what you're doing.

If you haven't........better get started soon, we are only a few weeks out from comp season!